DTM Archives September 1998

Desktop Music Mailing List

Archive for September 1998

Hi James,

Good to see you on the list :)

I'm sure I won't be the only one here to say "get an SBLive instead of the
Awe64"
Mind you, it will cost more, but it is after all the most important musical
part of the pc.... and the Live! is shaping up to be a bargain.

Also, you may want to have a closer look at the hard drive. I don't know the
details of this particular one, but I had an interesting experience with a
friend's drive and my own the other day.

Mine is a Seagate Medallist Pro 6.5GB UDMA
His is a 4.5GB Seagate Medallist UDMA
Both UDMA drives and the only visible difference is the "Pro" tacked on to
one of them. We knew in advance that the smaller drive also did not have the
high 7200rpm spindle speed of the Pro and thus would probably score a bit
lower on HD Tach. The surprise was that the Pro in fact scored triple the
thru-put of the non-pro. Even more depressing was the access time 22ms
versus 13.7ms.
In fact, the smaller drive performed even slightly worse than my old 3.2GB
Quantum Fireball which is a Mode 4 drive.

Both drives were running MS busmastering drivers under Win98. After looking
up the drive on Seagates web site I did confirm that both drives were
performing roughly to spec. "Spec" ... the Spec being that the non-pro had
an internal transfer rate of about 2/5ths of the Pro model.
I've learned that even if a drive has a UDMA interface, it doesn't mean it
can actually perform that fast. It looks to me as if the manufacturers are
packaging the same old Mode4 drives in boxes with UDMA interfaces and
selling them as the latest and greatest. Even sillier though is that my
larger and much faster drive only cost another 30% more than the 4.5GB...
which is what you'd expect anyway for the extra 2GB. Triple the speed is
thrown in for free.

The only drives that are performing better than Mode4 so far seem to be the
7200rpm drives.. currently available from IBM, Seagate, Quantum and Maxtor I
believe. Add more if you know of any.

In short, be very careful about what drive you buy as you may not be getting
the performance you think you're buying.
SCSI is not necessary at all with a modern busmastering IDE system. Anything
over 5 or 6 MB/s with less than 5% cpu load will give you loads of tracks to
play with. The extra capacity of a fast UDMA drive can help make up for a
badly fragged disk or such. Busmastering is probably more important as it
frees up your cpu for more important things like running apps and effects.

As for how many tracks, if properly set up, you should easily get dozens of
tracks.
128MB RAM would also be desirable if you can afford it.
The ASUS P2 board is pretty much the best and the PII300 will likely clock
to 336 with no trouble for an extra 10% speed.

Go to the DTM website and grab a copy of HD Tach.
http://www.photographic.co.nz/music/
Follow the Link on the news page

bedtime.......................

Regards

--
Robert Ian Axford
[email protected]
--

-----Original Message-----
From: James D. Landry <[email protected]>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Monday, 31 August 1998 08:45
Subject: New PC

>I wanted to get you peoples opions on a PC I'm getting ready to buy.
>Here's the configuration:
>
>Intel PII 300MHz
>Intel 440BX ASUS Mother Board
>64 MB SDRAM
>4.3 GB Ultra DMA Western Digital HDD
>Sound Blaster AWE 64
>
>Will this setup be suffice for now? I'm going to be using soft.
>samplers until I get me A3k. Then I'll be using it for HD recording.
>Alot of people suggested SCSI but I cant really afford it. I'll be
>getting a 2nd hard drive and Jazz drive and maxing out the ram later on
>when I start recording. How many stero tracks do you think I would get
>with the setup right now? Anybody know any places online where I can
>buy customized PC's besides Gateway and Dell? Thanks alot.

System.out.println("Hello world!");

I just wanted to let you guys know that from now on I'm
gonna get on your nerves with my emails :-)
I used to be an AWE list hardcore member, before
I was kicked out (I noticed it weeks later, hehe).

Hope to read from you soon,

Daniel

----------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Haenle
Digital Media Solutions Center
IBM
Germany
07031/16-4432
[email protected]

I have the follwing setup.

Masterkeyboard connect with its midi out to the AWE64G's midi in. Is it
possible to sync rebirth with for example with Cakewalk without
disconnecting my keyboard. Im I right that I have to use Hubi's Loopback
device (or something like that). If so can anyone tell me exactly how to
this because I've tried in the past but never succeded.

--
With kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet
John Schaap

The basics are as follows:

Install Hubi's thingy
This will create Midi ports LB1 to LB4 (I rename to Loop1 to Loop4)
In Cakewalk, go to the Devices menu and highlight one of these ports in the
Output pane (on the right I think)... Move it to the top so that it resides
as the next port after your sound devices ... If you only have an Awe32,
then the list should have the Awe at the top followed by the Loopback port
you chose to use.
The Awe and the Loop should be highlighted... this will assign the Awe32 to
Port 1 and the Loopback port to port two in Cakewalk.

You should of course set up an Instrument definition for the Awe now under
Instruments... Use the Soundfont Device if you like, but set channel 10 to
GS Drums (and set Bank select method to "0 only" for that channel)

Anyway, back to the question.
Open Rebirth and Cakewalk.
Open Project Options in Cakewalk under the tools menu and go to the last tab
called Midi Out. Tick the box next to "Transmit Midi Start/Continue/etc"
Now, set the MIDI Output Port to "2" This number should be the same as how
far down the list of Devices the Loopback Port is. In the case above, it was
the second on the list therefore it is port two.

Open Rebirth go to Edit/ Preferences. Tick the Synch to Midi Clock box.
Choose the Loopback port that we are synching to from the drop down list
next to INPUT. It should be LB2 or Loop2 if you renamed it.
Go to the Options menu and set "synch to midi clock" on that menu.
Go back to Cakewalk and hit the play button - with a sequence present of
course.

Rebirth will now be running in synch.

To calibrate the two apps,
Go to the Rebirth preferences and after choosing a DirectX driver, move the
playahead slider around until it no longer gives underrruns. Should be
around 70 or so. Now, create a 4 bar loop in Cakewalk consisting of only
1/4 note clicks... the Stick sound is quite good for this.
Go to Rebirth and do the same thing: one click per beat (every four buttons)

Run the two apps in synch and play with the Adjust Synch setting untill the
two apps are playing the clicks at exactly the same time. You can do this
very accurately as the clicks will begin to flange when they are
overlapping.

The amount should be simliar to the Play Ahead.. Maybe a bit less like
50-60ms.

That should get you going.

If there are any mistakes in this, it's because it's five in the morning and
I haven't been to bed yet.

Regards

--
Robert Ian Axford
[email protected]
--

-----Original Message-----
From: John Schaap <[email protected]>

>
>Masterkeyboard connect with its midi out to the AWE64G's midi in. Is it
>possible to sync rebirth with for example with Cakewalk without
>disconnecting my keyboard. Im I right that I have to use Hubi's Loopback
>device (or something like that). If so can anyone tell me exactly how to
>this because I've tried in the past but never succeded.
>
>--

I just activate the LB1 midi in device within Cakewalk (just leave the usual midi in device active as well) and I can then record to audio from any/all midi tracks. I would gues that Rebirth will play back OK with LB1 (or any other loopback option).

There is a manual/help file included with the Loopback program. This includes helpful examples. I found trial and error worked for me.

hubipic.jpg (19584 bytes)
enlarge this to see the Cakewalk devices with LB1 active

John Schaap wrote:

I have the follwing setup.

Masterkeyboard connect with its midi out to the AWE64G's midi in. Is it
possible to sync rebirth with for example with Cakewalk without
disconnecting my keyboard. Im I right that I have to use Hubi's Loopback
device (or something like that). If so can anyone tell me exactly how to
this because I've tried in the past but never succeded.

--
With kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet
John Schaap

John Schaap wrote:

> I have the follwing setup.
> --

John, I tried the famous Hubi's Loopback and finally after so many tries,
months and installs, I made it work. I then found the Midi-Ox Tool 5.07
which is a Windows 95/NT Program. It's a multipurpose tool for diagnostics
and a System Exclusive Librarian -I think I know what that means- and it
comes with the Midi Yoke which is like the loopback: a Midi patch Cable
Driver. It connects any Windows Midi application outputs to any other
application's inputs. This is the concept that finally made me understand
how to use these darn midi cables or virtual drivers. The explanations on
the help and readme files of this two great tools --Thank the authors,
because it is for free!!-- are very clear and with practical diagrams. Their
web site is :
http://www.channel1.com/users/jamieo .Their names are Jamie OConnell
([email protected]) and Jerry Jorgenrud. Thanks to them I can do what I
tried to accomplish for a long time. To be able, for instance, to play my
midi controller, use Cakewalk and Awetoy at the same time without having my
SB Awe32 freak out.
There is also the Midi Thruway 2.0 made by Techno Toys, is very nice and it
is also easy to implement. I still prefer the Midi Yoke. I hope these notes
help you. Cheers, Edgard.

>
>
>

--

"The mind believes what it sees and does what it believes:
   that is the secret of fascination...Yet conditions must be
   found to give birth to a spectacle that can fascinate the mind."
   Antonin Artaud, 1938.

I know it has got something to do with the directX discussion at the moment
but I would like to have a quick answer to my following question:

My Yamaha synth has arrived and I've got some questions about it. Maybe.

1) Is it possible to record a song which is played by the yamaha to an
audio file in 44k stereo?

2) Also the synths specs says that it got 600+ instruments and 10 or 11
drumkits. Where and/or how can I acces them and can I adjust or make own
sounds with using an XG Editor or is the synth mainly for just straight
forward playback midi files.

--
With kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet
John Schaap

John Schaap wrote:

> 2) Also the synths specs says that it got 600+ instruments
> and 10 or 11 drumkits. Where and/or how can I acces them and
> can I adjust or make own sounds with using an XG Editor or is
> the synth mainly for just straight forward playback midi files.

Get the XGworks demo version from

http://www.yamaha.co.uk/xg/html/midplug/m_mid10.htm

Whenever you assign a voice, the menus show many more
options than the standard 128 GM instruments.

A couple of days ago, I bought the full version from a local music
store for just DEM 149, which is about 40% off compared to the UKP
80 for online orders

--

ciao - wolf

-----------------------------
Wolf Buchleitner, Head of R&D
QUANTEC Tonstudiotechnik GmbH - Munich/Germany
----------------------------------------------------------ENGLISH-
WWW documentation: http://www.quantec.de/ (>450 english pages)
Discussion groups: http://www.quantec.de/menu_e/hotmnu.shtml#mdomo
> list-clk: digital audio interfaces and clock distribution
> list-dsp: our new-generation musicians' toys, i.e. DSP FX
------------------------------------------------------------------

This just in. Interesting news about software for SBLive. Take a look.
Cheers, Edgard.

http://www.soundblaster.com/pressroom/releases/1998/p980902a.html
--

"The mind believes what it sees and does what it believes:
   that is the secret of fascination...Yet conditions must be
   found to give birth to a spectacle that can fascinate the mind."
   Antonin Artaud, 1938.

-----Original Message-----
From: Edgard Abadia [mailto:[email protected]]
Subject: Creative Labs PR: Creative Announces Live!Ware Program

Been there, seen that. Here are some excerpts related to desktop music:

1... 512 voices - an upgrade from the currently available 256
voices..combined with the 64 hardware voices

- It still remains to be seen whether software synth can compete with
good soundfonts.

2....Creative plans to make available an amazing 500 SoundFont banks
consisting of 2,500 instruments.

- Where will they get them from? Are those the well-known EMU/Sonido
banks? It takes a very long time and tremendous effort to develop a good
instrument. How do you folks like their new free downloads?

3....and the newly announced Sound Blaster Live! Value

- Does anybody know what will be missing in the Value card?

Cheers :-)
/George

hi everybody,

has anyone new infos (reviews in magazines, tests...) about the yamaha
sw1000xg sound card ? any links somewhere on the net for interesting infos ?

hi everybody (again),

another question : does someone here use (or know well) the Roland MC-505
groovebox ?
have you any particular problem or trouble to report (when used with
cakewalk, for example) ?
i'm planning to buy one (it seems interesting for the studio AND for the
stage), and i'm trying to know more about it...

thanx

Hi,
I'm sure you've already been here, but for others, it has information about
the XG1000 and the DSP and all that. (even talks about my little DB50XG)
Haven't seen anything else yet.

http://www.yamaha.co.uk/xg/index.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: microatolldreadies <[email protected]>

>has anyone new infos (reviews in magazines, tests...) about the yamaha
>sw1000xg sound card ? any links somewhere on the net for interesting infos
?
>
>
>

I don't have one, but I read MANY tests in various
synthesizer magazines, and none of them reported
any problems. Some of them wrote their own demonstration
pieces, and used sequencers, of course. And it definitely
makes no difference whether you trigger *external* Midi
equipment via Cubase or Cakewalk. A midi event is a midi
event.
Seems to be a well-designed thing, this 505, and the sound
is really HiFi compared to other dance music production synths
(this is definitely what it was designed for). However, I must state
that it is too expensive for what it does. Take the Quasimidi, for
example, and see what is does for the money.
Hope that was not too much "off desktop" for this list :-)

Daniel

----------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Haenle
Digital Media Solutions Center
IBM
Germany
07031/16-4432
[email protected]

Of course i've already been there, but thanx anyway :) ... maybe usefull
for other people one the list.

BTW, what do you think of your db50xg ? i mean sounds quality, and quantity
? (especially for "classical" acoustic instruments, pianos, chords, ...)

>Hi,
>I'm sure you've already been here, but for others, it has information about
>the XG1000 and the DSP and all that. (even talks about my little DB50XG)
>Haven't seen anything else yet.
>
>http://www.yamaha.co.uk/xg/index.htm
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: microatolldreadies <[email protected]>
>
>>has anyone new infos (reviews in magazines, tests...) about the yamaha
>>sw1000xg sound card ? any links somewhere on the net for interesting infos
>?
>>
>>
>>
>

Can I connect this synth to my awe64g, if not what is the full card version
of this synth?

>
> BTW, what do you think of your db50xg ? i mean sounds quality, and
quantity
> ? (especially for "classical" acoustic instruments, pianos, chords, ...)

-----Original Message-----
From: Edgard Abadia [mailto:[email protected]]
> -- I tried the famous Hubi's Loopback and finally after so many tries,
months and installs, I made it work....

I cannot even imagine working without Hubi's Loopback/Cable combo. I
wish at some point Creative implements multi-client capability in SB
drivers.
One question though. When using a sequencer I often need to scan through
MIDI files quickly. The Win95 MIDI player is perfect for this except it
doesn't support the selection of a MIDI out port (and, hence, cannot run
simultaneously with the sequencer). There are dozens of MIDI players
around but most of them feature tons of unnecessary functions like
playlists, fancy layout etc., but not the capability to select an output
port. The question is, can anybody recommend a simple freeware player
with such a function?

Cheers :-)
/George

The midi player comes with yamaha vitual xg50 has the capability of
selecting output port.
try to get the trial version.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Edgard Abadia [mailto:[email protected]]
>> -- I tried the famous Hubi's Loopback and finally after so many tries,
>months and installs, I made it work....
>
>I cannot even imagine working without Hubi's Loopback/Cable combo. I
>wish at some point Creative implements multi-client capability in SB
>drivers.
>One question though. When using a sequencer I often need to scan through
>MIDI files quickly. The Win95 MIDI player is perfect for this except it
>doesn't support the selection of a MIDI out port (and, hence, cannot run
>simultaneously with the sequencer). There are dozens of MIDI players
>around but most of them feature tons of unnecessary functions like
>playlists, fancy layout etc., but not the capability to select an output
>port. The question is, can anybody recommend a simple freeware player
>with such a function?
>
>
>Cheers :-)
>/George
>
>

>One question though. When using a sequencer I often need to scan through
>MIDI files quickly. The Win95 MIDI player is perfect for this except it
>doesn't support the selection of a MIDI out port (and, hence, cannot run
>simultaneously with the sequencer).
But you can choose some hubi port in windows multimedia properties and hook
it wherever you like

I'm not sure if it connects to the AWE64G. You need a "Wavetable
Daughterboard" connector on the card. It looks sort of like an IDE port.

As for the sounds, Compared with the ROM AWE sounds, the XG is WAYYYY
better, particularly in the upper and lower ranges. I also compared it to
the Chaos, the EMU 8MB and another 8MB GM Soundfont when I first got it.
The XG has by far the best acoustic drums of just about any card or module
I've ever heard. The other instruments are generally excellent, but I've
found them often to be too rich and saturated for layered mixes.
I find myself going through the thin and dry AWE ROM sounds looking for a
lead sound to cut through the mix.
The Awe (including the 8MB font always had rotten poxy drums that were
completely useless and The XG is best for that.

I did have another problem with my XG that several other people also
reprted. I was never able to get a decent answer form Yamaha about this
problem either.
Whe the SB16 WAV ports are being used, the XG will often emit high pitched
squeals and false notes. This happens on some sounds more than others and
is worst with sustained sounds.

This basically made the card useles for any projects involving audio, which
is pretty much everything I've ever done - I always mix my MIDI to audio
tracks to apply FX. This wasn't possible with the XG as it would inevitably
start squealing.

I'll do a bit of a write up later today on my experience with the Live! so
far and post it to the Desktop Music Pages. I'll make reference to the XG
and the Awe.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Schaap <[email protected]>
To: Mailing DTM <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, 4 September 1998 21:11
Subject: Re: yamaha news ?

>Can I connect this synth to my awe64g, if not what is the full card version
>of this synth?
>
>>
>> BTW, what do you think of your db50xg ? i mean sounds quality, and
>quantity
>> ? (especially for "classical" acoustic instruments, pianos, chords, ...)
>

I have a Yamaha XG editor called "XGedit95". In the editor I have to select
a synth. You can select the following synths:

XG Level 1
SW60XG
DB50XGMU10
MU50 (CS1x)
MU80
MU100 (MU90)
SW1000XG

Which one should I select when using it with a "Yamaha SYXG70 Softsynth"?

Also after I installed the synth I have offcourse a midi device extra in
Cakewalk but also an audio device. I know you can turn this out (otherwise
I have four outputs in the "console view") in Cakewalk Pro Audio 7.0 but
can I do something usefull with it?

Thanks, John

Hello friends, I hope you are enjoying your holiday. I have a Creative
Labs IDE Controller listed in the Device Manager window of the System in
win95 in my PC. Is this controller supposed to be there? I don't recall
seeing it there before. Anyway it has a resource conflict (code 12). The
conflicting device is the "Interrupt Request 10 used by Creative Sound
Blaster 16 PNP " I follow all possible ways to solve this "conflict" and
still have it there (an !). The sound on the card when I boot the system
is a lot louder than before (it plays a wave file at startup), with some
distortion. When I went to the mixer(SB mixer) in the inputs/outputs
settings, the gain has an X and can't be modify, I could do it before
the "conflict". The only new thing I have done in my system is change
the graphics card to a Matrox Millennium II, given to me by a friend!!.
(it uses IRQ 11) I think the software for this card installs DirectX5
drivers, somewhere I read that they cause problems with audio. The
sound through Cakewalk seems fine, and other apps. Please some one give
me an advice on how I could solve this "conflict" and why the Creative
Labs IDE Controller would conflict with its own software.

--

"The mind believes what it sees and does what it believes:
   that is the secret of fascination...Yet conditions must be
   found to give birth to a spectacle that can fascinate the mind."
   Antonin Artaud, 1938.

Edgard Abadia wrote:

> Hello friends, I hope you are enjoying your holiday. I have a
> Creative Labs IDE Controller listed in the Device Manager
> window of the System in win95 in my PC. Is this controller
> supposed to be there? I don't recall seeing it there before.

This is an IDE port for a CDROM. As most current motherboards
already support four IDE devices (which is the maximum) - this
fifth IDE controller needs to remain disabled. There must be a
jumper on the Creative card to disable this port. Do so, please.

> The only new thing I have done in my system is change the
> graphics card to a Matrox Millennium II, given to me by a
> friend!!. (it uses IRQ 11)

BIOS assigns an IRQ to PCI graphic cards. Although I haven't
tested the Matrox, I never met a graphic card using an interrupt
at all. I've verified that with various high end cards by running
their private benchmarks from their driver CDs. Turning a graphic
card's IRQ on or off doesn't influence the benchmarks' results at
all.

So go into BIOS setup, enter the PCI section, and disable the
graphic card's IRQ there. After reboot, this IRQ will be free for
being assigned by Win95 to your sound card.

--

ciao - wolf

-----------------------------
Wolf Buchleitner, Head of R&D
QUANTEC Tonstudiotechnik GmbH - Munich/Germany

Does anyone knows what the price of the Yamaha SWXG100 is, or is going to
be, in Europe. (Netherlands)

And does anyone have a small sound blaster, creative or awe logo to put on
one of my studioware panels.
--
With kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet
John Schaap

Is a studioware panel a Cakewalk panel or a Cubase panel?

Daniel

----------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Haenle
Digital Media Solutions Center
IBM
Germany
07031/16-4432
[email protected]

[email protected] on 09/09/98 07:50:00 AM
Please respond to [email protected]
To: [email protected]
cc:
Subject: Yahama SWXG1000 and Logo

Does anyone knows what the price of the Yamaha SWXG100 is, or is going to
be, in Europe. (Netherlands)

And does anyone have a small sound blaster, creative or awe logo to put on
one of my studioware panels.
--
With kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet
John Schaap

Cakewalk,

very similar, has the same function, generally looks much nicer though.

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Haenle <[email protected]>

> Is a studioware panel a Cakewalk panel or a Cubase panel?
>

Hi all,

This is primarily intended for the Desktop Musicians, but also partly of
interest to some of the Jammers so I've posted it to both lists.

I've written a few pages of my impressions of my new SBLive along with some
preliminary test results of its performance compared to the Awe32.
There is much more to say than I could go into there, but I've written
enough to keep most prospective buyers happy I think.

I've also pasted in a Usenet post about someone's purchase and installation
of the new EMU ASP card which is based on the same chip as the SBLive.

Further, check out the news and contents sections for some HD benchmarking
results. I'd like to see some more results posted there so get testing and
send me some gifs.

For all of the above, visit the DTM home page at:
http://www.photographic.co.nz/music/

(Please send me a note if there are any faulty links)

And finally, for DTM list members only, there is now a page on the DTM
section where you can add information about yourself to a list of current
readers.
http://www.photographic.co.nz/music/dtm/userinfo/infoform.htm
I'd like to see as many readers as possible add themselves in the hope of
starting some threads about what we find out about each others interests and
skills.
Please only add as much detail as you're happy with.

Please check which list you are responding to if you reply to this.

Thanks

Regards

--
Robert Ian Axford
[email protected]
--

Greetings! I couldn't help but notice on the www.sblive.com site
that there is no mention of a version of Cakewalk begin bundled
with the SBL! - yet in Roberts review on the DTM website he
mentions receiving a version of Cakewalk. You don't suppose they
are going to UNbundle that, do you?

Hi Kenn,

I commented on the same issue a while back and there still hasn't been a
change to the SB live site. But yes, the Live comes With Cakewalk Express
Gold which (correct me if I'm wrong) is a 4 track version of Cake 6.02. I'm
not sure which because I didn't install it. In any case, Its very very well
featured for a bundeled sequencer.

I have also heard, but not confirmed, that the Live is being bundled with
Cubasis Audio 3.05 in Europe. That would make sense as Europeans are
generally more used to the German sequencers and the tech support would then
also be more localised than with Cakewalk.

-----Original Message-----
From: Kenn Washer <[email protected]>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Saturday, 12 September 1998 03:52
Subject: SBL! Cakewalk

Greetings! I couldn't help but notice on the www.sblive.com site
that there is no mention of a version of Cakewalk begin bundled
with the SBL! - yet in Roberts review on the DTM website he
mentions receiving a version of Cakewalk. You don't suppose they
are going to UNbundle that, do you?

Hi Alberto

not sure if you're on the DTM mailing list so I've also replied to you via
email.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>

>
>What about your SBLive eating your host memory to load soundfonts?

I think this is a marvelous feature. Much bigger fonts and my PC100 SDRAM
is much faster than the old 30pin stuff in my AWE. The live is a
busmastering card and the cpu takes only a fraction of the hit that it takes
with an ISA card.

Even the PCI Softsynth voices seem to use almost no system resources.
Whilst I am writing this, I have loaded a Symphony wrk file into Cakewalk
and have copied the 16 tracks five times. I am playing the same music now
in synch through five modules. The Live A synth, the B synth, The PCI
synth, the Awe32 and the DB50XG on the Awe. I've got 80 MIDI channels
banging away and I can't detect a slowdown of any sort. It sounds rather
good in fact. The instruments are sufficiently different that I'm not
getting any phasing or flangeing either.

A good clue as to the potential power of the new chip is that Creative are
set to double the total number of voices to over 500. At the same time they
are increasing the number of stereo 3D audio streams tha can be processed
from 8 to 32... an increase of 4x and what's even better is that Creative
seem to think that this only scratches the surface of the chips potential.

>From what I've read of the EMU APS card, there are quite a few bussing
features that we can look forward to as well.

As for losing host rAM to the fonts... I'd rather purchase another 32MB of
host RAM
than buy some proprietry module like the Awe64 had. As for me, I have 128MB
RAM and have run my font space up to 63.5MB. That's pretty cool I think.

Apparently you can have half your total RAM full of fonts, but you can only
have 32MB of it actually playing at any given time.

>What about the DMA cycles it must use now to play the samples in
>host memory?

Playing samples from system RAM is extremely fast and efficient. Especially
if it is being done by a seperate and very fast chip like the EMU10K1. This
is like adding a seperate co-processor to your system just to process
samples. In the same way you add a seperate processor to your PC just to
process video. And no-one's complaining yet that AGP uses system RAM. In
fact, it's a benefit.

>Finally, what about the performance decrement for these reasons

It performs more efficiently than the old ISA cards for a start. Then it
plays 64 streams of 48KHz audio without even touching your other resources.
Pretty darn cool I think. It adds an excellent Reverb and Chorus to your
line-in recordings without a spec of CPU power.

>specially when using a so resources sucking program as Cubase VST?
>

Not only resource sucking, but also sucking in general I think. heh heh.. I
still like to use VST though .. it's just so darn cool to play with.

If we get some extra bussing features like the EMU card has, we will be able
to route individual tracks all over the place.. through DX plugs and out
through the Live fx units and back into VST to be mixed down to another
track.

I want to be able to send Rebirth through the Live effects and then straight
into VST to add some of that 4 band parametric eq before recording it live
to a stereo pair of tracks. All of this should be possible with the right
software updates.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed. We'll be getting that guy (Viljem) who
wrote the impressions of the EMU APS on this list soon so we'll be able to
get some more info off him.

Hello to all members of the list!

>I'm keeping my fingers crossed. We'll be getting that guy (Viljem) who
>wrote the impressions of the EMU APS on this list soon so we'll be able >to get some more info off him.

Right now I'm in front of my home computer and testing the APS.
So far I can tell you that recording performance is very different
when selecting different sampling rates. Much more noise at
44.1 but excellent at 48Khz. Robert, if you tell me how
you performed tests on the Live! I will try to do the same
with APS.

So far I'm not able to record at 0db. (also there is a trick to
route both sends to disk recording and a great amplification
can be achieved). So far not possible to make exact digital
copies. It seems to me, that there is no way to bypass the
internal mixer.

NRPN implementation seems different from AWE. In fact I have
StudiWare panel for APS (have not examined it carefully) which
doesn't work with AWE and vice versa.

Definitely sounds different from AWE. More highs, more dry.
Also layered and stereo sounds on AWE used to have small
delay - typically two samples, now they are perfectly aligned.
And EM10K1 is much much more accurate in sample playback - I think
do to the 8 point interpolation. (I still work on that).

That's all for now, but I'll be in touch.

Vili

PS. There is a lot of talking about future 2500 free instruments.
I suspect that EMU will make free their Soundfont library.
If you are interested I can make a small review of that,
because I already own: Developer's Choice, GM/GS, Modul Mania
Boundle, Sonido Media: Piano & organs, WaveIT Gold and
WaveIT Piano CD.

Hey.I have a few questions. They may have just one answer. Have a roland A-33
keyboard controller hooked up to an Orchid nusound pnp32 soundcard. I'm very
interested in creating music using my computer. I'm wondering what software
and hardware people use to make the "instruments" I see on the hundreds of
rack synths I see out there. Money is effectively unlimited so I'm looking for
top of the line equipment. Besides SB soundcards, are there any better ones?
Any websites or opinions will help. I've emailed most of the major companies
(roland, SB, Korg, etc) and they've either told me they don't know the answer,
or they say something like "buy our (whatever) and it comes with more than
you will ever need". So I'm looking for a program or a soundcard where I can
*create* new instruments real time that I can play on my keyboard controller.
I read everyone's posts. or you can email at [email protected]. Thanks in
advance.

Robert Krum

P.S. Go buy Orb's album titled "ORBVS TERRARVM" But don't play it in your
car cuz you'll get lost and you won't care.

There are much better soundcards than a SB AWE 32/64
or the new SBLive! when it comes to audio quality, mixing and effects, but
if we consider the possibilities of uploading self-made sounds, and the
support of specialized software for that soundcard, the Soundblasters
are leading. I read many tests of soundcards, and they all basically
say something like "others sound good, but the sound library upload software
sucks or is in early beta". Even for the Terratec.

As a "real beginner" I would recommend you an AWE64 Gold,
because FOR THAT MONEY you get a lot! There is sooooo
much professional (and free!) software out there for the AWE64.
Yes, you can use it as a sampler triggered from your keyboard.

I also post this reply to the AWE mailing list, where there are many
freaks who will agree. Don't you, guys?! *loading shotgun*

Daniel

----------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Haenle
Digital Media Solutions Center
IBM
Germany
07031/16-4432
[email protected]

Got that album, and I love it.
Take care with the ORB "Pomme Fritz" album, it's quite different
from the album you mentioned. Personally, I like "U.F. ORB" most.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Haenle
Digital Media Solutions Center
IBM
Germany
07031/16-4432
[email protected]

Zap,

when I click on the link that you gave me
(where your equipment is described)
I receive "document contains no data".
Am I too stupid to klick on a link?

Daniel

----------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Haenle
Digital Media Solutions Center
IBM
Germany
07031/16-4432
[email protected]

I bought the SB Live! 2 weeks ago and don't like it. I've gone back to my
old setup of an SB-32 with 8 meg, an Audio Alchemy DAC-Man, and an Ensoniq
Audio PCI. Don't get me wrong, the SB Live! card is a great idea, I've just
had too many problems with mine. Not to sound like too much of a cynic, but
I think that CL rushed the SB Live! into production.

I'll probably get another one in a few months (maybe not...) when and if
they iron out some more of the bugs. For now, my old standbys work just
fine...

Bob Fowler
[email protected]
http://www.exit109.com/~fowlerr

Hi Mattias,

The specific details on the internal working of the Live is something we're
all still waiting for. I'll be publishing any info to the DTM site as soon
as it becomes available.

The Live has got Bandpass filters included in the parameters of some of the
effects; something which is important for any good reverb anyway.

For, now, we can assume that the Live at least has the same basic synth spec
as the Awe series cards, though I imagine there will be some additions or
improvements.

Here's hoping anyway.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>

>hi!
>i just wanted to ask a question.
>what about the filters on the live?
>lowpass, highpass, bandpass?
>just wanted to know .. =)
>thanks anyway
>/mattias

>As a "real beginner" I would recommend you an AWE64 Gold,
>because FOR THAT MONEY you get a lot! There is sooooo
>much professional (and free!) software out there for the AWE64.
>Yes, you can use it as a sampler triggered from your keyboard.
>
>I also post this reply to the AWE mailing list, where there are many
>freaks who will agree. Don't you, guys?! *loading shotgun*
>
> Daniel

I dont want to treat you like a "real beginner" but... a SBLive value
costs $ 99 and it can use as much memory as you want for
uploading samples, also it has CLEAN audio then... why are you
recommend an AWE64 card wich is next to dissapear and it has
ONLY 4Mb for sounds? :)

If the point is, "for that money you get a lot!" then for the same
or less money you got MORE with the SBLive! not to mention a
1.000 MIPS EMU processor and a nice reverb and efx :)

Also you can sing like a Chipmunk too in real time! hahahaha :)))

--
SodA - Gustavo Ruiz
[email protected]

currently I found only scheme for buiding converter for awe32
(that means 72pin instead of 30pin)
if some are interested I could publish them (about 120Kb gif's)
I'm currently searching in my archives for awe64 scheme, but no luck yet.

Hi Alexey and all

If you like, I could put up a page about this on the DTM site and put the
files there unless you have a place you'd rather put them.

I have a few other circuits that I'll be putting there like one on how to
make an external module out of a DB50XG and also how to wire it up for low
noise output to an external amp or another soundcard. (I'm going to wire
mine into one of the analogue inputs on the Live. I've already got the Awe32
going into the digital in and together this should make for a pretty quiet
setup)
I also have circuits for making a Midi breakout box which I'll put there.

Any other circuits would be appreciated.
Thanks :)

Regards

--
Robert Ian Axford
[email protected]
--

-----Original Message-----
From: Alexey Tikhonov <[email protected]>

>currently I found only scheme for buiding converter for awe32
>(that means 72pin instead of 30pin)
>if some are interested I could publish them (about 120Kb gif's)
>I'm currently searching in my archives for awe64 scheme, but no luck yet.
>

Hi all

Someone recently posted a message regarding the availability of a version of
AweVbank for the SB Live.
I've had a look around the Megota homepage and can't see it mentioned .

Does anyone still have the message or the URL that was posted about this?

I've decided that AweVbank is still going to be the best way to get patches
in and out of the Live and am keen to update.

Regards

--
Robert Ian Axford
[email protected]
--

Strange,

I've just visited the Megota home page manually via IE4 and immediately
found the SB Live info I was after.

Before this I had used the Shortcut to the Awevbank Homepage from the Help
menu within AweVbank. Turns out that that goes to a page that looks the
same but isn't - it didn't have the same graphics and info as the other
page.

Oh well. Got it sorted anyway :)

I have been playing with the SB-Live! for a couple of weeks now and have
had some good and bad experiences with the card. I probably haven't helped
my situation any by doing this, but I've also been swapping motherboards
back and forth between an ASUS SP97-V and an FIC VA503+. All of my
experiments have been with an AMD K6-2 300 processor and 128meg RAM. Let
me say now that this is my "extra' PC that I'm playing with, not my primary
music maker.

My current "base" configuration is an SB-32 with 8 meg and an Ensoniq Audio
PCI. I use the SPDIF on the SB-32 routed to an Audio Alchemy DAC-man. The
Ensoniq is installed only because it's line in/out are much quieter than
the SB-32, and because I need another external midi port. I do not use the
Ensoniq's built in synth, nor do I have the Legacy support and game port
enabled. Oh yes, I'm running Win98.

What I'm thinking about doing is removing the Ensoniq, re-installing the
SB-Live! and as I'm only interested in the SB-32's midi capabilities,
routing the SB-32's SPDIF to the CD-ROM SPDIF on the SB-Live!

My question... Has anyone made the SB-Live! peacefully co-exist with an
SB-32? I realize that I may be better off if I first remove ALL sound
hardware and drivers, then start with installing the SB-Live! and finally,
adding the SB-32. I spoke with a tech at Creative Labs who got rather testy
with me when I suggested that people DO use multiple sound cards. This
dude didn't have a clue as to real world applications of audio hardware...
Anyway, I would appreciate any feedback, suggestions, words of wisdom, or
cautions from members of this list who have tried this marriage.

Bob Fowler
[email protected]
[email protected]
http://www.exit109.com/~fowlerr

I shouldn't think about this kind of stuff when I'm at my day job, I didn't
get anything accomplished all afternoon thinking about the prospect of
making all of this work!

I just spent the last half hour installing the SB-Live into my system. My
wife always tells me that God hates a coward, so I elected not to pull any
of my existing sound hardware from the PC before installing the Live. I did
have to pull out an old 28K modem to make room, but that's hardly a loss.
Everything worked perfectly, first time out... The SB-Live, the SB-32 and
the Ensoniq Audio PCI. I'm routing the SPDIF from the SB-32 into the
CD-Digital in on the Live. I'm using the SPDIF out of the Live into my
Audio Alchemy DAC-man. The next logical step will be to route the line out
from the Ensoniq card to the aux in on the SB-Live.

Either this is just way too cool or I need a life!

BTW - I'm using the Asus SP97-V motherboard...

Bob Fowler
[email protected]
http://www.exit109.com/~fowlerr

Hello friends, just in case you haven't seen this review, check:
http://www.valuepc.com/html/sound_blaster_live_htm
enjoy, Edgard.
--

"The mind believes what it sees and does what it believes:
   that is the secret of fascination...Yet conditions must be
   found to give birth to a spectacle that can fascinate the mind."
   Antonin Artaud, 1938.

Or for anyone who couldn't get the link to work, this one will
(seems they missed a dot)

http://www.valuepc.com/html/sound_blaster_live_.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: Edgard Abadia <[email protected]>

>Hello friends, just in case you haven't seen this review, check:
>http://www.valuepc.com/html/sound_blaster_live_htm

Hi all
this is in reply to a note George sent me via the DTM site.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>

>
>First off, my congratulations on the great job. I have a few comments
though.
>1. DB50XG vs. AWE. Either my DB is faulty or my ears are. I have both, but
still prefer sf2 drums. (Wait till you hear my new stereo snares!).

After many more listening trials, I decided that the XG drums still have the
better acoustic kicks though the other drums are competitive. All this
changes once custom fonts are used of course. On the other hand, I've heard
some of the XG Hypergrooves which have custom drumkits made on the XG and
they sound pretty fantastic too. The New 8MB Emu font is good, but the
Kicks are still lacking in body and become too clicky in a thick mix. Some
compression is needed to seperate and fatten them. Using a different font
is easier in the end.

And just a note George, there seems to be a problem with stereo samples
going out of phase in the Live. There are some complaints about this on the
Usenet. I'm sure it will be fixed in the end, but for now the old Awe is
the better beast for playing stereo fonts. Apart from that I hadn't
actually noticed this happening yet.

>2. How come the banks created with Soundfont Librarian are tidier?

That was in reference to the common situation where-by the typical Awe-user
has a hard drive overflowing with soundfonts downloaded from the internet of
which only a small fraction are worth keeping. Using the Librarian, it is a
simple matter to sort these fonts into smaller tidier banks containing
specific instruments and remove the usless ones altogether

I had been using AweVbank for this purpose as it is time-consuming and
difficult to do with Vienna. For the Live I've decided to divide my banks
into roughly 4MB segments. e.g. I have several 4MB banks of Kick drums. I
Cakewalk I can attach the most likely 4MB bank to the song I'm working on
and step through the kicks till I find the right one. This does still mean
that 4MB is being taken up for just one kick, but that is still better than
8MB or more. In AweVbank it was easy to do this with Virtual banks and use
even less space, but I still have to wait for a Live version of that to come
out.

>3. Are you sure the new 2500 instruments/500 banks will be freely
downloadable?

Apparently so. And what a brilliant bit of marketing too. They'll sell
millions of these things if people think they're getting a whole sound
library with it.

>4. Not many DAT decks support 48kHz digital in or resampling.

But the all-important "pro" ones do. A friend of mine (and a SB Live owner
now) uses a Tascam DAT for mastering and that does it very nicely. 48KHz
ability will have to be a consideration when purchasing a DAT in future.
People can always resample internally to 44.1 and master to a cd writer if
necessary.

>5. Can you try using the old 8Mb EMU sf2 with SBLive and the new 8Mb with
AWE? I wonder if the new fonts are superior or it's the DSP that makes the
difference.

The new fonts are definitely better than the old ones. The 8MB is also far
better than the 4 and 2MB ones though. The Awe sounds just as good as the
Live playing generic GM files when the new fonts are used. The sound
improves greatly when fx are applied in both cases. The same goes for the
XG - it sounds quite dead and thin with no fx. The new fx in the Live are
quite an improvment on the the Awe cards. The new reverb has a complete set
of parameters to play with including shelving, diffusion, density, early
reflections and an interesting Detuning rate and depth.

The Chorus has a choice of waveforms and even an adjustable phase offset.
The Stereo delay can handle just over 1200ms. The distortion sounds pretty
awful on first listening; I'll run my guitar into it later. I doubt it will
be much use for that sort of thing though. I can see it coming in handy
with organs and drums though.

>6. What's this talk I hear about FXs applied globally? I mean, if I want to
use distortion for a guitar track the drumms'n'bass tracks will have to go
completely dry?

Like most cards, its just one multi-fx unit and should only be used as such.
I think the best way to treat it is like one would use an external rack
unit: i.e. run your instrument into it and adjust it how you want it to
sound. Then record your track "wet" with the fx. I suppose one could leave
off the reverb and chorus and add them globally during mixdown. But to get
the other fx, yes, you do have to lose out on flexiblility. I'm hoping for
driver updates to give us some more functionality here.

>7. Have you seen this: http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/ct4620/index.htm
>

Yep, I had a good look at this site.

I didn't quite see the relevance of his measurements for us though.
The measurements I made are identical to the method used by that guy Martin
Walker in SOS magazine. He uses the same setup to measure his Awe64 Gold
and his Event Gina card. He obtained values of -83dB for his Awe and -95dB
for his Gina.
The same measurements made on my Awe32 and my Live result in values of
-78dB and -86dB respectively for Line-in recording and -77dB and -93dB for
the internal synth.

Those figures are directly comparable to the Gina and the Awe64 Gold numbers
given in the magazine. The Gina is potentially 9dB quieter than the Live
when recording via the line-in. My Live is 3dB quiter than the SOS
Awe64Gold when recording line-input and Creative have published a figure of
6dB for the same comparison. My card is therefore possibly not up to spec
(by3dB)- or there were enough other variables to simply shift the data in
one direction. Doesn't really matter though.

I made the measurements to reflect the noise-level you can expect to work
with when you have recorded either audio via the line-in or internally
straight off the chip. The level of noise at the Line-out is of little
importance I feel because that should only be used for monitoring anyway.
When you are mastering, you should be either writing directly to a cd (with
no loss of quality) or using the SPDIF-output to transfer to a DAT. The
measurements made on the Pcavtech page don't reflect this method of
recording and mastering music and are not appropriate (I believe) for us.
Even worse; he only made his measurements at 44.1KHz not 48.

There is also a new page at the Live website with frank and detailed
statements from the Creative (or EMU) techs about the sound quality of the
Live. They don't specifically name the Pcavtech site, but they are most
certainly referring to it.

Check it out here http://www.sblive.com/livenews/audio_specs.html

Righty...
I think that just about covers it.

Regards

--
Robert Ian Axford
[email protected]
--

Sorry about that guys, thank you Robert for correcting it. Cheers,
Edgard.

Robert Ian Axford wrote:

> Or for anyone who couldn't get the link to work, this one will
> (seems they missed a dot)
>
> http://www.valuepc.com/html/sound_blaster_live_.htm
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edgard Abadia <[email protected]>
>
> >Hello friends, just in case you haven't seen this review, check:
> >http://www.valuepc.com/html/sound_blaster_live_htm

--

"The mind believes what it sees and does what it believes:
   that is the secret of fascination...Yet conditions must be
   found to give birth to a spectacle that can fascinate the mind."
   Antonin Artaud, 1938.

Sorry but I had to share this one with you. That"s what I ( and many)
get at work. Cheers, Edgard

dtm/archive/1998/bonus.exe
--

"The mind believes what it sees and does what it believes:
   that is the secret of fascination...Yet conditions must be
   found to give birth to a spectacle that can fascinate the mind."
   Antonin Artaud, 1938.

Why sorry? Do you mean that it performed format c: on your computer? A
friend of mine got a "bonus" from a call girl a while back - he's still
in a very bad shape!

-----Original Message-----
From: Edgard Abadia [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 1998 9:30 AM
To: awe32-jammers; DTM List
Subject: Live Bonus

Sorry but I had to share this one with you. That"s what I ( and many)
get at work. Cheers, Edgard

--

"The mind believes what it sees and does what it believes:
   that is the secret of fascination...Yet conditions must be
   found to give birth to a spectacle that can fascinate the mind."
   Antonin Artaud, 1938.

oooops! Sorry, here is the url for that review, my apologies. Cheers,
Edgard.

-- http://www.anandtech.com/reviews/systems/sblive/index.html

"The mind believes what it sees and does what it believes:
   that is the secret of fascination...Yet conditions must be
   found to give birth to a spectacle that can fascinate the mind."
   Antonin Artaud, 1938.

Interesting review of the sblive! BTW, I noticed that on the
requirements for this new SB card it is recommended to use at least a
133 MHz Pentium, I think. So if I use my ancient home made 100 MHz P.
(48 EDO MB) how slow or "inappropriate" am I going to be? Cheers,
Edgard.

--

"The mind believes what it sees and does what it believes:
   that is the secret of fascination...Yet conditions must be
   found to give birth to a spectacle that can fascinate the mind."
   Antonin Artaud, 1938.

yeah, not sure about that spec.
I can't imagine why the card wouldn't work perfectly well on a 100MHz
machine. You may lose out in the maximum number of wav's or software midi
voices, but that's not really a problem seeing as it should increase your
total system performance over an ISA card like the Awe anyway. You may need
to check your motherboard spec for PCI 2.1 compatibility. Not sure how far
back that has been the standard.

Maybe post a note on the SBLive newsgroup asking if anyone has tried it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Edgard Abadia <[email protected]>

>Interesting review of the sblive! BTW, I noticed that on the
>requirements for this new SB card it is recommended to use at least a
>133 MHz Pentium, I think. So if I use my ancient home made 100 MHz P.
>(48 EDO MB) how slow or "inappropriate" am I going to be? Cheers,
>Edgard.
>
>--